Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
These attempts happened in several states in parallel, it really appears coordinated rather than a coincidence.
Obviously trans people should have full rights and opportunities to participate in society in any way the rest of us can.
But beyond and aside from that, I will never understand why we have to act like sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected. It’s people playing with a ball. I genuinely can’t imagine why this issue has ever been anything other than “yes let whoever wants to play with the ball play with the ball.”
It is truly weird to me how we not only accept the sports cult, but literally never even scrutinize the field. It’s grown-ups playing children games; it’s definitely not that serious
Agreed, even if trans people absolutely dominated in every sport they participated in, why does the government need to be involved beyond prohibiting discrimination? Let the various sports organizations determine the best way for everyone to be able to participate fairly. It certainly shouldn’t be a top issue with all the other problems in the world.
I don’t understand why we even have men and women leagues. Make an A league, a B league and a C league. If A League is 90% men for most sports and C league 90% women, so be it.
There are “biological” women who crush their respective sports and I don’t know why they are viewed differently than a trans women who does the same.
If we lived in a world where people really cared about girl’s and women’s sports, and fairness, this would be dealt with using science and logic.
The sex divisions in sports are really “dominant hormone” divisions. So anyone who has started puberty must be divided into the league with which their hormones align.
The studies say that a trans woman who has been at cis female levels of estrogen and testosterone for two years, has no advantage over a cis woman. That’s the criteria. Two years, then good luck.
It’s not hard.
Not even if gone through puberty and jidt has a bigger frame over all? The other thing I could see happening cause people love to chest is go off blockers till closet to the event.
As a WA resident I would like to add:
“The largest donor to support Initiative 638, Brian Heywood, hedge fund manager and founder of Let’s Go Washington, the Political Action Committee (PAC) leading the campaign in support of Initiative 638, contributed about $2.23 million. … Supporters have received $7.74 million, while opponents have received about $2.16 million.” source
This fuck has a history of trying to control children: “The unprecedented initiative slate would … guarantee parents access to information on K-12 school curricula and school medical records.” source
He’s like our own state version of Elon Musk.
I get it.
Doesn’t seem like this should be the responsibility of government so much as the schools and the leagues they belong to. Why should everyone in the state get to decide as opposed to students and parents actually have to contend with the perceived issues?
I want to make clear that I support trans people participating in any recreational activity, I support their rights as much as anyone, and that this initiative throws a burden on all female children for the sake of a punishing a few, the competitiveness argument is totally based on assumptions and prejudice not backed by fact-based evidence, the issue is pushed by conservative culture war propagandists, and all that.
That all said, I don’t think most WA voters who voted for I-638 did so because they hate trans people, or think they shouldn’t exist as people. Hateful and spiteful people do exist but they are a minority. Rather, on this specific wedge issue, again based on flawed prejudice pushed by conservatives, opinions seem more to be framed around something similar to why 40 year olds can’t compete in an Over-50 bracket of a tournament.
I think many “normies” do not even have a good idea, what transpeople really are. They hear “trans” and “boys in girls’ sports”, and they are imagining a burly transvestite caricature with stubble wresting little girls, and not a twink femboy playing basketball.
I can at least understand the opposition argument on this one (unlike most other anti-trans initiatives). To them, a trans girl in highschool is just a boy who decided to call themself a girl. They don’t understand what would make someone want to do that - they just see the surface level, and that logically resolves to ‘A boy can say they’re trans to compete against girls’. I can see where they’d object to that. And purely from a competitiveness standpoint, one could argue that a trans girl who hasn’t started any hormone therapy or anything of the sort is, in effect, as physically capable as her male classmates.
And, yes - a boy who just wanted to appear to perform better at sports could in theory do that. It’s just that reasonable people tend not to want to pass legislation against an entire class of people because of the potential for a few bad actors. It’s like banning N95 masks because someone could wear one to hide their face during a robbery.
But why focus on boys pretending to be girls and not girls pretending to be boys? Doesn’t that just point to the underlying misogyny and pedophilic instincts of the people wanting to inspect little girl genitals?
In the context of sports? Because the argument is that testosterone makes boys more physically capable and therefore provides an unfair advantage in sports when they’re competing against girls. Since trans boys typically don’t have the same levels of testosterone that biological boys do (particularly in high school, where they likely aren’t getting hormone therapy or haven’t been for long), in their eyes, a trans boy competing in boys’ sports would be at a disadvantage.
As a point of interest, in some states, a girl can choose to try out for the boys’ team if they want to, but I’m not aware of anywhere with gendered teams where a boy can try out for the girls’ team.
You said it better than I did.
Misogyny
Even trans women get classic misogyny.
I wasn’t eligible to vote for 638, but this nuanced take does a good job of describing around where I am. I’d prefer trans people are validated and can exist in society without fear or issue. Affirming care should be accessible and stigma-less
I also think natural testosterone production is a crazy-good steroid that improves muscular development. I’m not on board at all with the “checking under skirts” requirements of the bill but just feel uneasy with the nominal advantage of male puberty and it’s impact on women’s sports. This may get called ignorant, but until I’m asked for it, my opinion doesn’t matter at all, so I have some time. And I’m only chiming in here to add credence to rentlar’s take.
It’s an effective wedge issue, I’m glad that it mostly didn’t work as such, and it sucks that WA folks are going to be subject to the 638
but just feel uneasy with the nominal advantage of male puberty and it’s impact on women’s sports.
I might agree if trans atheletes dominated the sports, but they are not.
A good point. I certainly think if we start legislating people’s rights away it’s reasonable to ask “Is this actually a problem?” before proceeding.
It’s really not that difficult to understand. I’m very liberal but if I was a parent of a teenage girl, I would also be worried about the size and muscle difference in a teenage boy that has just started transitioning. But I also don’t think anyone should be banned from playing sports just because they are transgender. The easiest solution in my mind is just make weight divisions like they do in wrestling for example.
My boy wrestled in high school and I would have been just as concerned with him wrestling some of those “grown ass men” in high school.
Remove gender requirements and make weight classes, maybe weight and size limits, or maybe just an open division if the participants/parents aren’t worried for any sport that someone might get hurt because of the size difference.
There isn’t a perfect solution but I do understand the concern.
First: part of the point of sports in secondary education is team building. Not every kid wants to play football, as much as they want to play football in their school team with their friends and classmates.
Second, most schools do not have the populations to support more than a handful of teams for the most popular sports, and a single team for less popular sports. This could work for individual sports, like track or swimming, but basketball and baseball might struggle.
Third: where do you draw the lines? This is a solvable question if Informed by the first 2, but it raises blood pressure.
I have no personal stake in this. I didn’t know I was trans in school. I when I played sports, I played on the boys teams. But the question I come back to is: are trans girls…girls?
If they are, what is the problem? We don’t ban tall girls from girls basketball. We don’t ban strong girls from girls wrestling. We celebrate them. Should Michael phelps have his medals revoked because he clearly has natural advantages in swimming?
The whole controversy is only a controversy if you don’t actually think we are the gender we say we are.
I understand the point. And yes everyone should be allowed to participate. I am just playing devils advocate and understanding why parents think this way. Hell I wouldn’t let my own kid play football regardless. It’s brutal. Well full contact tackle. Flag football was really fun in college. And the population problem is always a problem with small schools. I transferred for a tiny high school in WV to a giant school in NC and was floored by some of the sports they had. I don’t even know you could have a high school swim team or golf.
There isn’t a perfect easy solution. If I had a little girl in high school athletics, I’d be like fuck it, play whatever. If another player is better than you, transgender or not, get better. Train harder. As an adult life is hard. Nothing is fair. What we really should be banning is the rich kids, they’re the ones with the true advantages 😂
Thank you. This is the allyship I wish for.
So you’d vote for mandatory genital inspections for girls? Because thats what this vote did.
No. Absolutely not. If you had actually read my reply the most intrusive check would be stepping on a scale.
I never said I agreed with the law, just empathized with the concern.
People need to understand both sides of an argument and the nuance associated with it. Not immediately jump into fully armored social justice warrior.
I read your reply, but disagree with the concern parents have being valid, because its unfounded. There is no scientifically backed proof of trans individuals having an advantage in sports, and trans kids getting gender affirming care are often placed on hormone blockers. The hormones involved in teenagers also wildly fluctuate. I agree with the premise of weight class, but the “concern” parents have about their little girl playing against a big scary “man” with teenage testosterone muscles (their words, not yours, before you say I’m putting words in your mouth) is fueled by misinformation about trans individuals, gender affirming care, and the amount of impact these individuals even have in sports. and as a result we now have genital inspections for kids.
I dont think people falling for fearmongering is a valid concern, and I think we shouldn’t be coddling this kind of concern any more than we should tolerate racist concerns.
Most of the transgender people I have run into were adults that transitioned later in life and that is what most people are exposed to. After puberty, transition is a completely different experience. And yes there are studies that talk about the advantages transitioning post puberty.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12312191
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40820509/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8311086
Several of these studies show that estrogen and testosterone suppression generally reduce lean mass, muscle size, and some strength measures. However, the evidence is not consistent about how completely those measures converge with those of cisgender women. The last link found that some muscle and strength differences persisted after hormone treatment, including in studies extending to three years.
So no this is not fear mongering.
Weird, gross comments about women’s bodies you find icky. We already had a system in place for women like us and it was dismantled by morons. Transition isn’t a “completely different experience” post puberty for fucks sake.
Cis people are so gross
With out getting past the paybwall, were talking about minors here. Not adults.
This would hold some validity in contact sports, much less so in all the other sports. I wouldn’t be concerned about my kid’s welfare in a swimming competition, for instance.
But that requires nuance.
No, I wouldn’t be concerned about my kids welfare in something like swimming. Basically any sport you are essentially competing against yourself: golf, track, diving, etc.
I also don’t believe there are many contact girl sports so I’m not sure it even matters that much. Basketball maybe?
Then what exactly is the point of your post? The only things you mention are wrestling, size and muscle difference between boys (and therefore transitioning girls who aren’t taking hormones) and girls, wrestling, and weight classes (which are typically used in contact sports). Only one of those has factors that aren’t solely issues with contact sports, but the tone of your post implies physical risk, and size/weight would only matter in that context in contact sports, too.
Isn’t it against the rules to touch other players? I wouldn’t have thought basketball was contact.
Have you ever played basketball? It’s “supposed” to be non-contact I agree but depending on the position can be brutal.
It’s not all that surprising. It’s something like an 80/20 issue. Rights are rights and I think most people are to that point, but things get a bit more wobbly about this specific issue. At least at this point in time. And that’s probably even before all the bad faith arguments coming from conservatives.
It’s probably why cons worked to put these kinds of things on ballots - a re-play of the Karl Rove tactic from years ago in order to drive more cons to the polls.
I think most people just are very confused about the idea of transgenderism and what it actually means, both to those who are transgender and for everyone else.
And the answer to this? Education.
I think the issue is that, like it or not, we live in societies segregated by gender (bathrooms, prisons, sports, privileges, requirements) and the idea to just abandon all this doesn’t sit well with a lot of people, both on the right and on the left.
Or maybe people just want to keep their sports segregated and competitions protected? How many trans athletes breaking records is it going to take to realise they’re segregated for good reason
Are the record breaking trans athletes in the room with us? Please share who they are
Your proof is one article about a political stunt by a guy who doesnt identify as trans making a statement to discredit a trans athlete that transitioned with hormones and surgery 20 years before the event?
You’re engaging in a very disrespectful manner, with a clear agenda. You are not discussing this in good faith. I will engage with you just once now you’ve moved the debate’s goal posts again.
Rachel McKinnon (now Veronica Ivy) - Set a women’s world record and won gold at the 2019 Masters Track Cycling World Championships in Manchester. In 2018 set a world record in the women’s 200m sprint.
Laurel Hubbard - Set masters world records with a 131kg snatch and 149kg clean & jerk at the 2017 World Masters Games.
Mary Gregory - Four powerlifting records in 2019.
Anne Andres - Set a Canadian women’s powerlifting national record and an unofficial women’s world record.
Lia Thomas - swimming records at UPenn (wiped by US govt)
Sadie Schreiner - a few sprinting records at SIT
Cortez-Fields - swimming records at Ramapo College
AB Hernandez - high school track in California. Set a record with a 39-foot-10-inch triple jump at the 2026 winter championships
So you think trans girls are girls?
protected from what, exactly?
Or maybe people just voted about how they feel on an issue without it being part of some anti trans conspiracy
Well, it’s not much of a conspiracy, it happened in plain sight.
I don’t hate trans people. I just don’t want my daughter to ever have to deal with the adults involved in this bullshit and I firmly believe that not everyone gets to do all of the things. Pick a lane and go live your life.
You do realise the adults are the one talking gential inspections for everyone right?
no one is seriously doing genital inspections. it is not mentioned in the initiative
Its required, and is in the initiative.
“the student’s biological sex [based on]… reproductive anatomy, genetic makeup, or normal endogenously produced testosterone levels.”
It requires either a hormone test, visual inspection, or blood test, and guess which of those is the cheapest to get?
Educate me: what is the mechanism for banning a specific student from girls sports?
People who exist on the left are like a big bag of wet cats who don’t know each other in terms of aligned beliefs.
